Digestion Issues... Again

[kasmith]

So Abby has had some interesting digestive issues since we first got her last Memorial Day Weekend. When she went for her first vet appointment, they did a stool sample and she was positive for giardia. So she went on fenbendazole. She actually started having soft stools then and I thought it was from the medicine, but I suspect now in retrospect it probably was based on her change in food because who knows what she ate at the shelter. However, I'm not sure if it was because of the fenbendazole, but Abby wanted no part of her food half way through the course of treatment and she wasn't eating. I am not sure if the medicine had a taste or what, but she didn't want to eat anything even when there was no medicine.

I went to a local pet store, and purchased a Fromm puppy food. No go, she didn't like that either. So we tried the Merrick Puppy Plate and she loved it. After a couple of months she had an issue with diarrhea. Even though she was a puppy that girl would wake us up AND hold it until we got downstairs to take her out. I was so proud of her. We called the vet, took her in, and left with a prescription for metronidazole and a bag of Science Diet I/D dry food since it was low residue. We did that for awhile until she was better (and her stool sample came back negative), and slowly introduced her food back.

But I feel like every few months I go through this with her. Sure enough the week of April 18th she started with this again, and the thing is that chicken and rice just doesn't bind her at all when it happens. So on the 23rd we went to the vet and got the metronidazole. The vet said they're finding with some dogs that are on Merrick (and she was on Grammy's Pot Pie), that it has such a high fat content that dogs frequently go through cycles of diarrhea because it is almost as if their pancreas just can't take anymore. It made total sense to me, and the vet recommended putting her back on low residue (Iams) with a probiotic.

This Saturday morning was her last metronidazole tablet, and by Monday morning she had diarrhea again. I had a feeling she would because even with the metronidazole she was still having soft stools, sort of between firm and soft serve ice cream but not her usual. I called the vet and on Saturday when she goes in for her distemper they're going to do a thorough blood panel, including TL1, to look for maldigestion and malabsorption. I do hope they figure this out soon, I just feel so bad for her! And she's so good, too. Sometimes in the middle of the night there is an urgency to go out and she wakes us up and holds it while we get her down the two flights of stairs in the condo to take her out. And she just looks at me with the most helpless look that it breaks my heart because I just know she doesn't like when this is going on. Poor baby!

The worst part is that we still work on training with her, and I have absolutely no idea what to give her for a treat that isn't going to upset her belly too much while this is going on. Any suggestions?

[mezmerelda]

So am I reading this right that she doesn't do well on the rice? If that's the case, maybe try some sweet potato or something with the chicken for a homemade low residue. Try that until her stools are firm (you might have to remove the starch all together - we've had to w/Ozzy), then start a food trial to determine if something in her diet is causing the problem. Try one protein at a time. It may take a while. It's also possible she's reacting to the non-proteins in the food, so you'll have to do similar there. You may also want to consider adding yogurt or digestive enzymes to her food.

If the chicken isn't bothering her, you can cut up little pieces of boiled or grilled chicken to use as treats during this time. Or whatever proteins work for her.

[kasmith]

Yes, our vet had said that when we boil the chicken and rice it should largely be rice with a little chicken just for flavor. So each time we've done that we've found that it just doesn't bind her at all. Maybe the first time it had a little bit? But presently not at all, poor girl. Are probiotics considered digestive enzymes? If so I am giving her that, but I can definitely try something else. I can try sweet potato, too. How much do you typically give? I wasn't sure if it is a 1 for 1 in place of the rice so she'd get the same amount. The vet had said that sometimes the protein can make the stools soft so I've held off on giving her that for treats, but once her stools are firm I can try to introduce a bit of that to see how she tolerates it. Thanks!

[mezmerelda]

Enzymes and probiotics are different. How much does she weigh? Or will you expect her to weigh when full grown?

[kasmith]

Her weight is between 37-40 pounds (the 40 was closer to her winter weight when we weren't walking as much due to weather). She is full grown now.

[sam.i.am]

Sorry to hear about Abby's belly issues.

I guess this could be (a) IBS/stress/generalized sensitivity (b) IBD/malabsorption issue or (c) she could still have a parasite:

(a) Is this related to any anxiety? IBS is all stress-related, so sometimes it's an emotional trigger.
ProBios is a good brand of probiotics, if you need.
Digestive enzymes may help her, too, minimize gut upset even if this is stress-related.
Valerian/flower essences may help increase her calmness.

Have you thought about doing a home-cooked trial? As Mez suggested, maybe using sweet potatoes rather than rice.
I think there are recipes you can follow. I don't think most recipes recommend using mostly the starch rather than more meat (even for sensitive dogs).

This is probably not where you wanted to go, but a lot of people with sensitive stomached dogs feed raw with great success.

My Oliver was very sensitive to foods and did much better on raw. I had to balance his meals carefully (whereas many dogs do great on much more loosely-planned meals). If I got his percentages correct (for him), he had solid poops and no over-night emergencies.

Adding a little bit of fiber also sometimes helped Oliver (I used a tablespoon of plain, canned pumpkin).

(b) IBD (you've probably seen this, but just in case): http://www.2ndchance.info/inflambowel.htm
these groups may offer more info:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/IBDogs/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/

(c) parasites
Did you double-check her stool samples? Giardia is hard to catch sometimes in a regular stool sample. We did the kind that is the one they send to a lab rather than a float test. Those are sometimes more accurate for giardia. It is sometimes difficult to get rid of giardia. I had to do this with Milton as he arrived with a myriad of parasites.

[kasmith]

You know I hadn't considered a raw diet just because I know absolutely nothing about it. Abby is really my first "adult" dog. I lived at home until I was about 25 because I was still going to school, but then when I moved out I couldn't have dogs. We had dogs growing up and while I lived at home, but none have ever had issues with digestion so I've never needed to research it.

I can see what you're saying about a link between anxiety and her digestion issues, and frankly that wouldn't surprise me at all. You figure that within a month prior to her officially starting the diarrhea she stayed with someone while we went on vacation and started showing signs of latent fear reactivity/aggression. Maybe all of this relates? That actually was the first thing that went through my mind when she started with the diarrhea. But these are definitely things to bring up with the vet.

Last night I'm not sure why, but she threw up while we were outside. Normally I give her a PB Kong while we eat dinner, and probably around 8:30 she threw that up. She came back in and was running around fine and wanting to play, and today seems all right. So maybe it is more parasitic? I have no idea. You've all given me some great things to think about and discuss with the vet, and in addition to the blood test I'm going to do the more detailed fecal test. If worst comes to worst there is a nutritionist that is about an hour away from our house that I'm told is very good, and that's a route that will be next if I can't come up with anything between me and the vet.

Samantha, thank you so much for the links. I actually hadn't seen any of them before, so I truly appreciate you sending these along. Abby really is the first dog I've ever had who has thrown curveballs at me, so I'm learning a lot from her!

[sam.i.am]

If you get the rest of these issues sorted out and find that it's simply that she's sensitive to processed food, raw food may be easier for her. Raw may sound complicated and gross, but even this kitchen-phobic, non-meat-eater can manage it. I'm precise with my kiddos' diet bc that is just my personality, but many feed with estimates. I do some estimating (now, after years) but I do measure out certain aspects that I want in more precise amounts in their diet. Over time on raw it's important to feed a variety of meats and organs. More info on the links below:

Here is a good yahoo group on rawfeeding: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
http://www.rawlearning.com/bigpicture.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/fish.html

This USDA site allows you know the bone %, vitamin, mineral, etc. for each cut of meat (on average). http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html
Please feel free to PM me if you want more info.

[Hounds_N_Leo]

Have you tried canned pumpkin? And are you sure you are NOT, overfeeding? Include treats and such in your calculations for mealtimes. Make sure no one else in the house is double feeding. Do you free feed, feed once a day or what? Does she bolt food or pick at it?

And just so you know IME Merrick has some MAJOR quality control issues, and I would not feed that food if you paid me...and I am not picky. I feed Purina ONE if that tells you anything LOL.

[mezmerelda]

Two of our three Swisstards have had sensitive bellies. Gryffin did fantastic on raw. I would really like to move back to raw with using kibble when we travel, but I am having getting the support for that from the other human in the house. I have a feeling it would help Ozzy and his digestion issues a lot, plus really decrease his water intake. Now, if I could just get Dan to listen. Sadly, he really seems to be against it. Not sure if it's laziness or what.

[kasmith]

Well, as far as overfeeding goes I'd say no. She eats half a cup twice a day. Now keep in mind that when we adopted her she was the largest dog I'd had to date, so I had no idea how much to feed her. That said no one had ever been able to tell me a clear amount she should eat a day so originally had gone with the recommendations on the back of the dog food when we first got her, and inevitably she stopped eating because we were overfeeding. So through a recommendation I had discovered a website about teaching your dog to eat (http://www.sue-eh.ca/page10/page28/) and we went with that, and that's how we got down to the half cup. With that amount she maintains anywhere between 37-40 pounds and is a good weight per her vet with that amount. That said, the volume of her treats and things like that has not changed. She does get the same amount each day for treats. Once a week on class day there is the potential for her to have more treats (typically cut up hot dogs, chicken, etc.); however, the treats in class are typically cut to be the size of a pea are in place of a meal and we do not feed her our food other than peanut butter for Kongs. So in my mind I'm not overfeeding.

Yeah, I'm starting not to like the Merrick brand from what I'm hearing from some people who have put dogs on it. I hate the whole topic of dog food and digestion because if I go to the vet they push Science Diet and Iams and say it is because the bigger companies have had the opportunity to do more thorough studies and can provide real numbers. I go to the local pet store and they tell me that I shouldn't buy those because the first ingredients aren't protein. I go back to the vet with that information and they tell me that the other companies separate their grains such as brown rice, white rice, etc. so that the grain content is still high but since they filter it that way it appears lower. If anything I'm learning that I just need to find what's right for Abby.

Melissa it's interesting that you mention the water intake. Is that a known benefit with respect to raw diets? Admittedly I know nothing about these (plus it is audit time at work and I am absolutely swamped so this weekend I planned to research). But I swear that Abby would literally drink herself to death if I just left a huge bowl of water for her. She literally drinks until it is empty and usually wants more because she doesn't realize she just had a TON of water.

[sam.i.am]

Raw is 70% water (since meat is not dehydrated like kibble is), so *additional* water intake is greatly decreased. The dog still gets ample hydration, but much of the water now is coming from food.

When you have sent a urine sample to the vet, has it come back that she is concentrating her urine properly? That is more of a question specifically related to water intake than Abby's stomach upset issues.

Delilah came to me sort of obsessed with water drinking (she was without food and probably water as a very young puppy, so maybe it stemmed from that). Raw allowed her to gradually realize she was not really thirsty and her water intake went from obsessive to totally normal relatively quickly.

[kasmith]

I actually have yet to send a urine sample to the vet. A few months ago we brought her to the vet because she was cleaning herself a lot and her vulva apparently was irritated. They thought it was a vaginitis of sorts and didn't think it was a UTI, but said that if it came back they could do a urine sample either from me collecting it while she goes potty or by getting it from the bladder. But inevitably the medicine cleared that up and it was a non-issue. But when you say that about the raw diet that might be an added selling point for my husband, who although he knows as much as I do for raw diets he doesn't seem too jazzed by the idea of them.

[Hounds_N_Leo]

You might...since she likes water so much, see if you can time these incidents with rainfall, or even sprinkler use. Perhaps she is licking grass, or drinking from puddles...and reaggravating her giardia or even picking up something else. Just throwing that out there in case. You might also consider the various things that can have polydipsia as a symptom (diabetes for ex).

[mezmerelda]

You will get decreased water consumption with a home cooked, non-kibble meal as well. We've been doing that w/Ozzy for a couple of weeks and it's very noticeable. I think we are switching to raw after vacation, so right around memorial day.

[sam.i.am]

Yeah, I'd aim to do a urine catch within 24 hours of your apt. (first morning's pee is best/most concentrated).

I'll tell you how I've done this with my girls: I get a shallow paper bowl, put the dog on a leash, take her outside and as she starts to squat, scoot the bowl beneath her. Never had a problem with this method. I then dump the pee into a small glass jar or plastic tupperware that I am willing to sacrifice. If it will be a few hours, stick it into the fridge and then don't forget it on the way to the car/vet.

ETA: I don't mean to have sounded an alarm about Abby's drinking, but excessive thirst/drinking can be a sign of a few things you'd want to take care of/know about. Delilah had a background that made it likely for her to drink excessively AND she had a horrendous bladder infection/kidney infection that fueled the issue. Anything from a UTI/kidney infection to diabetes, etc. are all issues that can cause excessive drinking. Then, there are the behavioural issues that are just OCD about drinking...this is possible, too.

[kasmith]

Oh no I know you weren't. And I think I may have made it sound worse than it is. If I fill her bowl a lot I really think she'd drink it all (although sometimes I've come by to find that there is water left in the bowl). That said, once she does drink it all she usually doesn't indicate that she needs more, which she'll tell you when she wants more by knocking the bowl around. I just sometimes wonder if she has a limit. I suppose I could measure? I just don't want to bloat her out. But I have no idea what is considered excessive?

[sam.i.am]

I've read that an adult dog can drink up to about 1 ounce per body weight a day (on average).

[kasmith]

OK, that's good to know! I'm going to start measuring it to see just how much she actually ingests. Maybe it just seems like a lot at times? We'll see.

[ShilohsGirlJen]

I have a friend who helped me get started on Raw. It was nice becuase she does a mix of pray model and raw meaty bone. My friend lives in Northern Wisconsin so she has been able to find lots of low cost ways to get meat that is ok for her 3 dogs. She even gets some of it free. With Lowe we were seeing lots of itchy allergies. Now she is doing great. With raw it can take up to 2 months for the body to clean everything out. Raw does take some thought. Getting food, prepping it, freezing it and then getting it out in time to thaw a little. But it takes me less time to fed raw then to feed Freedom kibble. I also pay the same per day for the raw and I do for Freedoms Fromm.