Feeling lost/Echo

[Myzoocrew7]

I'm so upset, frustrated, angry, pissed off.....right now. Not even sure where to start.

I'm about done with Echo. I love her dearly. She's a very sweet girl. HOWEVER, she has a very high prey drive. And I have three small dogs. So you know where this is going. In the beginning, it really wasn't too bad. She showed interest in them and could easily leave them alone if she saw me and I signed for her to come to me. It's really only in the last three months or so that things have gotten extremely bad/dangerous for the little dogs. I never leave the little dogs and her outside alone. And it's gotten to the point where the little dogs can't even be in the same room with her in the house. With a very small house, it makes things incredibly stressful for me. Either all three little dogs are in a room while Echo is out in the house or they're out in the house and Echo is in her crate. If they even wander too close to her crate (which happens with Halo since she is blind and doesn't always know where she is), Echo goes into absolute manic attack mode.

So....today is a beautiful day. I needed to do doggy poop duty so everyone went outside with me. The little dogs were sunbathing and the big dogs had "chewies" to keep busy (and leave the little ones alone). Mimi pretty much hides and shakes if she sees Echo, so she was hiding under the patio table once Echo finished her chewie. I went to let the little dogs in since Echo was finished and before I could get to the back door, Echo had caught Lucy and was "stomping" on her. She never bites or growls, but she stomps. With Lucy screeching, I figured Echo had broken Lucy's back. Lucy is terrified and shaking but I think she's ok. I know it's my fault for even allowing them all to be outside together.

But I CAN'T live like this. I don't know what to do. Right now I can't even look at Echo because I'm so angry with how stressful she's making my life.

I know...train, train, train. But with a high prey drive like she has and with it getting worse all the time, one trainer told me that that is something you can't ever completely get rid of in a dog.

What do I do?

[bren]

Sorry you are having to deal with this, Shannon ((hugs))

I don't really have any good advice to offer, but I had a similar situation with Tek and my cat. Tek would chase him, which I think started out as playing, but the cat was terrified and ran, which only instigated Tek further. It worked out in my old house because I blocked off the second story from Tek, so the cat had an entire floor to himself. Now that we are in a smaller place and the cat likes to hang out in the living room, Tek will sometimes go after him. He's getting better with training and does ignore him most of the time so things have improved. I'm so sorry that's not working with Echo. I think there are some dogs where the instinct can't be removed completely, and that makes things much more difficult.

[ToBScholarly]

I know it is not the same thing but when we had Korina, we had a trainer and two vets and our rescue head tell us that although aggression could possibly controlled (under the best of circumstances), it can never be cured. And even to get it under control - how long would that take? And what happens to everyone else in the household in the meantime?

Tough decisions. I am sorry you are going through it Shannon.

[Terry]

It is tough. I don't think you will ever get her prey drive out of her. It is scarey when there are big and little ones. alls it takes is one split second. You know shannon what ever you decide you will be supported. Hugs to you and the poor little guys.

[mezmerelda]

I haven't been through this myself, so I don't have any advice for you. I will agree with Terry, though. I will support you no matter what. I just wish I had the magic answer for you.

[Hounds_N_Leo]

Just to let everyone here reading know I am going to discuss this bluntly and from the perspective of someone that HAS rehomed dogs and HAS euthanized dogs for temperament issues...so bear that in mind and if you find that upsetting try to temper what you read and not ream me too badly lol. This IS coming from a place of wanting to help and offer advice ONLY...based upon MY experiences, only. Factor in that I only know you from the internet LOL...

Hopefuly Shannon you can take what resonates and dump the rest in the wastebin and not hate me afterwards lol *wink*

Ready? here we go!....

Multidog households are tough at the best of times. Mix in size differences and well..it gets tougher. You know I have pretty marked differences of size in my home...but my hounds are sturdy little things.

First off, I do not hold with this necessarily, being "prey drive" your dog has a nose...and your smaller dogs smell like DOGS...she knows fully, that they ARE dogs, dogs are NOT prey...she just for whatever reason...does not care for them. It is time to analyze WHY. It is not merely that they are smaller than herself and zip around? CHILDREN do that...is she predatory or exhibit any of this stomping with them? It may be semantics BUT I do not believe a dog that attacks other dogs is having a prey drive issues...it's not about obtaining food...it is a dog aggression issue...which can be size, gender, status, or even situation specific. Now...

In the example you gave, high value food...chewies were around...maybe just now gone, but that does not mean some resource guarding was not involved. RC will hang off Cleo's face for several minutes AFTER treats are long gone...she is that nasty about sharing. It's not life threatening BUT think about if it were reversed and CLEO was the one possessive? A door was also involved...that being a situation where SOME dogs place high value on going inside FIRST...also something to really revisit. The mere act of going IN or OUT of a portal is a source of extreme agitation for MANY dogs...where do MOST skirmishes happen, at a dog park?? see what I mean?? And those dogs do not even have a firm pack vibe from living together...slights and insults are ALWAYS worse when dealt by family rather than strangers, don't you think? You're little dog hides because she KNOWS perhaps that she will be forced into some contact with a dog probably sending her "get the heck outta here" vibes from where she was eating! Imagine how scared she was...and nothing sets off a pack like the scent of fear...sad but true.

There are numerous OTHER more likely causes...them being the same sex for ex...being close in temperament, or age, her own age or stage of life, or a great temperamental DISPARITY (ie one very insecure seemingly in charge but really scared, blowhard of a dog seldom mixes very well with a confident secure alpha type, one totally self contained doesnt miss any sign of disrespect alpha dog does not mix well with a rock headed, no manners having dog, etc)...and perhaps even territorial or object/person based protectiveness!

IMO sometimes you DO have to consider rehoming. IMO the dog who has lived with me longest is owed more than a dog I got more recently...or if it is a dog "I" brought into this world literally then that is over a dog that has another breeder, co owner, rescue org, or place they'd be welcomed back. That is just me and my home. Everyone will be different in that aspect.

You have to step away from the issue from an emotional standpoint. Almost impossible I know. It is NEVER a given that 2 or more dogs are EVER going to get along for their whole lives...no matter what size or sex, they are. Some dogs simply prefer to be ALONE...or maybe have one companion.

See it from a large dogs side also...the smaller dog often indulged and protected almost unwittingly by the owner...setting a cycle of privelidge and messing with the order of things in a way that can confused or irritate even, who is the leader of your pack? When did the issues start? Do any of the dogs see any person in the home as "theirs" and if so...has that possibly fed into the problems?

I don't have a real good grasp on the ages and sexes of your dogs...but I would actually bet money on this being a "bitch" issue and one clouded by perceived rank usurpment and privelidge with the humans or such before it being an issue of her wanting to prey upon them...it's worth really sitting and reviewing EVERY incident...

Think even, about this...are YOU tense when they interact? Are YOU worried about an incident occuring? If you are then the dog most keyed into YOU will have no issue picking up on that and fixating on the perceived cause and trying to remedy it...or simply becoming similarly tense and worried and developing a hair trigger.

I think IMO more review and thought is worth giving to this, think AROUND the tendency to label this as a one dog thing and look at the pack as a WHOLE. Really watch the interactions for triggers, even proximity to a certain person, your own worked up-ed ness level, etc.

Rehoming and euthanasia are both quite final as applies to the dogs in our lives...it's worth really checkin out the pack dynamic before to ensure you have everything worked out correctly.

[mezmerelda]

Very nice, IMO, Gina. Gives ME a lot to think about in general, and I'm not currently having any issues in my pack.

[Myzoocrew7]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I would like to say that I have been viewing it as a "prey drive" because Echo will lower her body and walk very purposefully and slowly like she's sneaking up on the dogs and then suddenly "stomp" on them. It's like a dog that sneaks up on a bird or a cat...she does exactly the same thing.

I also understand your comment about the door; however, I was nowhere close to the door when this happened and Echo had no way of knowing I was going towards that side of the house at that point. She does the same thing whether or not any type of food is involved. I've seen her rush outside when Lucy is outside and in the middle of pooping and stomp on her. She's snuck up on Halo when Halo was sound asleep in the sun and not aware that Echo was approaching her. I truly have not been able to see any rhyme or reason or triggers to her behavior. This is why it's hard for me to figure out how to work with her. She definitely views me as the pack leader. She's excellent about sitting when she approaches me, letting me go through the door first, sitting before she's allowed any food, etc. She also backs down easily to Walter and Willow.

I suppose for now, the littles and Echo will all have to be kept separate. It's not worth the risk of something tragic happening. I almost lost Halo after Zen viciously attacked her and ripped her throat open and then turned on me. Although Echo does not show that type of "aggressive" behavior, I could never live with myself if she seriously hurt one of the little ones......especially Halo who is a senior and essentially helpless. I've also emailed the breeder to ask her for advice.

[Hounds_N_Leo]

IMO she sounds like she is being somewhat restrained? not involving her mouth AT all is rather important to note. HAS she ever used her mouth? what is her entire demeanor during this? is her body tight or loose? does she vocalize at all? what does the stompee do? lie still and/or urinate? attempt to flee? cry out? or snarl back?

It really would be helpful to have a visualization of this stomping behavior because at this point I am wondering why she is NOT, involving her mouth. What vocalizations does she make? MOST dogs I have seen that stalk smaller animals with the purpose of killing them pounce, pick up via outh and SHAKE in a very pointed vicious manner until the creature moves no more.


Ah and old age or infirmity in a pack member is a CLASSIC trigger of problems. That is SUPER important, esp among bitches. Usually the next most dominant bitch will start harassing the older one almost FORCING her to give it up...sometimes it goes easily, all the submissive gestures are given and accepted...other times? It does not and one side or the other refuses to tender power or accept the submission...then they need permanently separation...that is how bitches are sometimes. Nonnie and Susie were like that towards the end...because they both saw themselves, as the lead bitch.

[broox159]

I dont have any advice for you Shannon but want to wish you luck with coming to a solution with your problems with Echo and the little dogs. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you.

[Myzoocrew7]

Well, I am ALWAYS there within a second.....because they are never unsupervised. So I have no idea what she'd do if given the chance. She will stand over the dogs and lift up a leg and literally stomp on them. Sometimes they'll attempt to run, sometimes they'll roll over on their backs, they usually growl or snap at her but she's never taken any of those cues.....even with Willow; perhaps because she can't hear and doesn't always see their mouths, so she has no idea they're "getting mad" at her. Her body is usually "tight."

Hmmm.....Halo has never acted like the "lead bitch." Ever. If anything, she's the absolute low-man on the totem pole. Her only "strikes" are that she's 10 and she's blind and she sleeps 22 out of 24 hours a day. Of course, she treats the other little ones exactly the same and they are both 3 (she's 1.5) and very submissive dogs.

[ALDOGMOM]

Ditto what most of Gina says...I struggle with the whole pack dynamic thing in the domestic dog...But I've never tried to manage more than three at one time in my household and never a group of dogs where there is such a difference in size...

Trust me - I know what you are going through...although not in my own household.
I know I will always have to "manage" Birdie around other dogs...

It is exhausting...(((hugs)))

[Smoochies]

Shannon ((((hug)))) not to add to your stress or anything, but I dont think you've mentioned Echo's temperment around your daughters... the first thing I thought of while reading your post was that you are looking to adopt another child as soon as humanly possible (and I have absolutely no idea what the timeline on something like that is). Could this be something that could impact that situation as well?

I have no advice to offer you, just support from someone who has made the rehome decision as well, and knows just how much it sucks...

[Smoochies]

and I just NOW saw your post in the Ponderances thread that you've put the adoption on hold.... I am so sorry you are going through all this Shannon (((((( big hugs))))))

[Swissy Mom]

Oh what a lousy situation. I have no advice beyond what others have said, but I'm so sorry you're going through this.

[Hounds_N_Leo]

Well, I am ALWAYS there within a second.....because they are never unsupervised. So I have no idea what she'd do if given the chance. She will stand over the dogs and lift up a leg and literally stomp on them. Sometimes they'll attempt to run, sometimes they'll roll over on their backs, they usually growl or snap at her but she's never taken any of those cues.....even with Willow; perhaps because she can't hear and doesn't always see their mouths, so she has no idea they're "getting mad" at her. Her body is usually "tight."

Hmmm.....Halo has never acted like the "lead bitch." Ever. If anything, she's the absolute low-man on the totem pole. Her only "strikes" are that she's 10 and she's blind and she sleeps 22 out of 24 hours a day. Of course, she treats the other little ones exactly the same and they are both 3 (she's 1.5) and very submissive dogs.

Well in most every pack there is an omega. The omega's purpose is a lowly one. They are there to basically, take abuse and the pack as a whole will use them as a scapegoat for any tensions...including those they have nothing to do with directly. It's something that happens when you jump from 2 to 3...many times...the omega becomes known.

If I may offer...fropm the stompers POV....

I want you lower member to show respect (this may be legit, ie in the presence of food or high value items or people) or inappropriate...either way that is what Echo is demanding...

The stompee, growls or snaps back (tension is raised between both and the stompee is acting most likely out of fear rather than pure refusal to accept a lower position)...

You intervene and probably not in a calm manner (who could be calm? we'd ALL be a little wigged out)...the cycle is broken before any resolution takes place.

the instigator, now associates the OMEGA with you being upset at them...so now the omega and your upset...are connected in the mind. That is a problem because it will escalate...as you become more worried and upset as these two (or any other two) come together...that connotation in Echo's mind becomes more set. Halo=correction for me, I don't like Halo.

Hmm...this is difficult because if there were NOT a size/health difference I might say let it go just a bit longer to see what occurs without you stepping into it, not to let anyone get hurt but to know really WHO is willing to negotiate. If the stompee for ex were to go apepoop on Echo...you know they do not need to be so much protected as respected as a willing and game particpant in the alpha games. If they make ALL the proper motions and Echo were to accept those...the problem might lessen...

But that is not feasible here so you have to go on the assumption that the association Echo has now with Halo and maybe even the other dogs in the home in general...is negative because interactions always lead to corrections on herself.

So..hmm, what you COULD try is jackpot ing Echo whenever one of the other dogs is barely in the room. Get really happy when one is on the edge of whatever field she is comfy with, and give her TONS of praise and treats. ONLY when they are on the edge of her comfort zone. You could use one of them in a crate even to keep them safe while you do this.

Re teach her that their presence does NOT mean corrections if she comes to YOU and gives YOU her focus instead. In short she needs to look ONLY to you when she is stressed by other dogs. She needs to seek you out and know you will keep order and she does not need to do so.

Is she trained with a LEAVE IT? that is a very good command to break focus and staring and take things down a notch. You can train this by leaving a lead on and reinforcing with that when you give the command along with a lot of treats.

Just some things I am tossing around.

PLenty of us have lived in Gated Communities...coming from Akitas I am VERY familiar with it lol. Sometimes it is all you can do. But maybe...if you could reteach the idea that the other dogs mean good things for Echo, and that you are in full command of ALL the pack and discipline of any and all members is solely yours...*just brainstorming*

[Terry]

awww hun, I am so sorry. I have no advice to offer, just support.

[Truman's Mom]

Shannon, I just want to send you a cyber hug.

[NickandNora'smom]

I don't have any advice or wisdom to add since I haven't had to deal with this, but I can only imagine how stressful it is for you, so I wanted to offer hugs. I'm sorry, Shannon. ((((hugs)))

[moondog]

Shannon I really don't have any advice to offer. I am sorry you have to deal with this though. I hope you find a solution very soon!!!