Schooling Cash

[Swissy Mom]

Sorry, this may get a little long...

So, Cash has been going to class once a week for about 2 months now. He is a maniac in class. He does great when he gets to work on his behaviors, but all the waiting while the instructor talks is hard for him. He does settle, though, but also gets excited often. This week he did great with his leave it, stay, polite people greetings, but did horrible with the loose leash walking...he was lunging and pulling like crazy. So, now they want him in a Gentle Leader because they think he's going to pull me everywhere.

Here's the thing, though....when we walk in the neighborhood he walks with a loose leash consistently. He does get excited when we see/pass other dogs, but we have great success getting him to sit and refocus. Our neighborhood is very busy with walkers, dogs, strollers, bikes, etc.., but Cash always does fine and is completely unfazed by all but the other dogs. He does well at the kids' school and at the pet store, too.

It frustrates me to take him to class and have him act like a completely different dog. I think I do a pretty good job of just being patient and sticking with it. The reason it bugs me is that they think he's this huge, crazy puppy and make recommendations accordingly. On the flip side, he is a maniac in class.

So, what do you think? Gentle Leader or no? Only use it for class? I don't want to use something that has the potential to cause neck injury if I can avoid it. On the other hand, I've heard that if used properly Gentle Leaders are quite safe. I guess I'm just not convinced and would love to hear others' thoughts. Thanks!

[mezmerelda]

I use a GL for Indy. As long as you use it correctly (meaning don't pull or correct the dog-stop when they start to pull until the least goes slack) there is minimal risk of injury.

Are you exercising him at all before he goes to class?

Honestly, the unsettled stuff during class is somewhat normal, especially for a puppy. If he's great outside of class, I might do what they ask for class, and also make sure he's worn out (slightly) when you get there. If you ever have intentions of competing in obedience with him, you may want to give this a little more thought, as you can't use a GL in class.

[Swissies4Me]

Personally, if you don't feel comfortable using it, don't. It seems rather pointless to me to use it in class and only in class. If he was acting the same while out in public than maybe it would be a good training tool, but honestly it doesn't sound like he needs it. You have to remember he's really young and he's a Swissy, he's going to lose focus. And, also remember the main point of going to class for him right now is to have fun and to socialize.

I took Ruger to two different puppy classes. One was great - the teacher didn't spend too much time talking and had helpers to go around and make sure we were doing things correctly. It was a small size class which also helped and the instructor was upbeat. She kept the exercises short and fun and that helped them to not lose focus. Ruger loved that class, and did great in it. The other class was a little bigger had different teachers, some who talked pretty much the whole class and Ruger had a hard time focusing in that class. To me it was amazing how much better she was in the class that was more interesting and obviously more fun for her.

Duke's puppy kindergarten was the best though. There were all sorts of stations and games to play with the puppies. We worked on obedience some too, but it really was focused towards making them confident puppies and getting them to try new things and getting them thinking and figuring things out and creating the all important bond between puppy and owner. The puppies didn't get board because they could and were always doing something. The tunnel was always one of Duke's favorite and to this day if we let him run through a tunnel he gets so excited. It really built a solid foundation for the rest of his training. I miss my trainer back in IL so much!

So, I have a feeling that Cash is just board and therefore losing focus. My advice would be to make sure not to get frustrated and keep it fun - even if he's driving you crazy You want to make sure that he's having a positive experience and just work on the exercises at home and when you're out and about with him, it doesn't matter how well he does them in class as long as he knows them. I'd say as he gets older definitely enroll him in another class and by that time he should behave in class and be able to focus and do the exercises.

[Swissy Mom]

Well, that's the other thing, they graduated him out of puppy kindergarten really fast...weeks ago now. He graduated out of level 1 really fast as well, but he has all the skills required to move on from level 1. So, now we're in level 2. We loved the puppy kindergarten class. He got to socialize a lot and work on skills, too. He doesn't get to socialize in class anymore now that we're in level 2. He does great wile we are doing all the exercises and I can't believe how much he knows at not quite 5 months! Personally, I think he's doing awesome....much better than I ever hoped! He's so young and sometimes I think they lose sight of that at class. He is the youngest in his class (along with an adorable Rhodesian named Harvey!)

Are you exercising him at all before he goes to class?

We try to wear him out before class, but a room with 6 other dogs is just beyond exciting to him.

I would think eventually he will realize it isn't social time and get over it. I would also assume it will be easier to settle as he gets older. He's still such a baby!!

[Swissies4Me]

Wow, he's almost 5 months already?!?!? Where did our Swissy baby go? That's great that he's doing so well! I'd say just focus on what you need to with him and try and keep it fun and interesting for him. I'm sure in Level II the exercises are done for a longer period of time so he's getting board/losing focus so you've just got to keep it fun and upbeat - not aways easy, I know.

One thing I've found really helpful for loose leash healing is to do a lot of about turns and he'll learn that he has to watch you and move with you and focus on you and not other items.

[mezmerelda]

So, you're saying he's got mad skillz?

[Swissy Mom]

So, you're saying he's got mad skillz?

LOL!! I don't know if I'd go that far, but he is a really good boy.

Part of me wants to pay for one home session, just to have the trainer come out and actually see the puppy we live with and see him walk in the neighborhood.

[mezmerelda]

Don't do it. You know you have a good boy. I think it's probably just age at this point. Gryffin was kind of like that too.

[ALDOGMOM]

I used a GL with Bogey the first three weeks of basic obedience...He was a fish on the end of a line, barking at all of the other dogs and generally acting like a lunatic...He had obviously never been on a leash before we brought him home from the shelter (he was picked up by animal control and never claimed)...

The GL was a miracle worker...I think it has some sort of magical powers...LOL...I would get it out and he would calm down immediately...He hated it at first (they all do) but he got used to it pretty fast...

Our trainer encouraged us to use it as a tool to help correct his INSANE behavior on a leash...After the third week we started weaning him off of it...He is now wonderful on a leash (six obedience classes later - including two advanced classes off leash)...

I view using the GL much like using a pinch on most dogs...As a training tool...not a solution or replacement for good, solid training...Good luck!

[Swissy Mom]

Don't do it. You know you have a good boy. I think it's probably just age at this point. Gryffin was kind of like that too.

I know it would be a waste of my money. He is a good boy and we know it and that should be enough....and it is really.

Kim - I am sort of hoping that if we use it for a short time just to get him more workable in a room full of dogs we will be able to wean him off of it and not have it be a long-term thing. Kind of like what you were saying about Bogey.

Ultimately, my goal is to have a well-trained, polite dog who can go anywhere and he is well on his way.

[Swissy Mom]

Okay, we ultimately decided to try the Gentle Leader, mostly because he has started trying to pull to see other dogs this week. It is amazing to me how much more focused he is with it on. I am hopeful that it will be a temporary thing just until he gets a little older. The really cool thing is that we went out to dinner last night (with Cash) and then walked around the shops and stuff in the area. With the Gentle Leader, even our 8 year old was able to hold the leash as we passed other dogs. All the other dogs we passed pulled to get at Cash. He definitely was interested, but didn't pull toward them and listened when our daughter said "Let's go!" It was awesome to watch her. Ram and I were right there ready to step in, but they are an amazing team. She has great timing, too, and automatically knows to treat him as soon as he gives her eye contact or walks past another dog without pulling toward them. I LOVE watching them together!

[ALDOGMOM]

It's so effective - it's creepy....
Glad it went well...

[Moni]

Just a question, what techniques did the trainer have you do when Cash started acting up?

When my guys get overly excited about other dogs, I body block and then throw them through some basics(EVEN if I am trying to walk). Meaning I physically place myself between my dog's line of sight and the other dog, then start asking for sit, down, touch, etc... Once they quiet down, they get a toy, treat or 'life reward' like resuming walking. However I do NOT use the toy/treat to distract them... otherwise you are teaching them to act up to GET the reward. If you do this, then make sure you throw in some behaviors first, wait for a couple seconds of quiet, then reward.

It is a LOT to ask of a puppy to just sit there and do nothing in a room full of other puppies when the trainer is busy talking. Think of how you felt in school waiting for the recess bell to ring while sitting in class with your friends while the teacher was just talking. At least you were occupied when you had work to do. However when you were just sitting and listening it could make time go so much slower, especially if you were not interested in the subject.

On outside walks, at least there are other things for Cash to focus on, like scents and sights. In class, I'm sure the only interesting things are treats and the other puppies and a lot of times those puppies are going to trump treats. Especially if the rate of reward slows down. Sometimes for an activity like that, you can use something REALLY teeny and constantly pop a treat in his mouth(like once a second or more), or something he has to lick at constantly. Its a lot of work at first, but it will help him focus in such close proximity.

BTW, I am not knocking the GL, and if that is what is working for you than go for it. There is a time and place for all training tools, I'm just curious what the trainer had you do before settling on that, recommendation. I only get to check the board every so often so I end up missing a lot of things and for that I apologize.

[Swissy Mom]

Well, on walks we have always done basics constantly and especially if he is distracted. We never make it far on walks because we stop and ask for basic behaviors often. When we see another dog we have always put ourselves between him and the dog and put him through the paces (sit, down, etc...) It was working relatively well until the last week when he began getting so distracted I couldn't get his attention even if I got between them and even if I have a super yummy treat. Ultimately, he loves to play with other dogs so much that he thinks that is a better reward than anything I can offer. That said, I don't ever let him greet another dog if he is being excitable...which means he doesn't get to greet on walks right now at all and that's okay. When he has playdates, we work on getting him to settle down before he can go play with the other dog. There just isn't time on the street though. The other dog is gone before Cash settles.

I do think our training facility jumps to GLs and training harnesses very quickly. I will say that, with the Gentle Leader, Cash will walk past another dog pretty well (no pulling) which gives an opportunity to treat him and tell him what a good boy he is. We have only used it a few times now...first time was Wednesday...so we'll see how it goes. In time we will ditch the GL.

During class, while she is talking I tend to constantly ask him for basics and treat him when he gives them. He is doing better every week. Sometimes the other dogs are just more than he can take. This week he started to actually just lay quietly for short periods while she was talking, but if not I just keep him busy. It's not like she talks all that much. It's just that he's young and his attention span is short.

[ALDOGMOM]

I also think that trainers (especially in a larger group class) jump to the GL because it works so fast...and it helps the class progress at basically the same level..

I have to say that I had done basic obedience with a number of dogs before Bogey so it wasn't like I was a total idiot about how to begin basic training with him - and he would have gotten there eventually - once I could get his attention...

It helped us get to where we needed to be much quicker...and more importantly (for us anyway) it helped correct the behavior quickly so we could move forward.

[mezmerelda]

I often wonder what would have happened if I started her on the GL earlier. I'm guessing I wouldn't be using it with her now if I had used it earlier.

[Swissy Mom]

Well, that's my thing. I've done basic obedience before with other dogs as well, but it's been a very long time and we didn't have Gentle Leaders then. I know I could get him there and I don't want the GL to be a substitute for solid training. That said, I like that with the GL he gives the behaviors I want more readily so I can treat and praise him for them more often.

Overall, I like our training school and the trainers there. Our class has 6-7 dogs. It is a rolling advancement system so there are certain skills you have to master to move on to the next level regardless of how long that takes. For instance, Cash already had the level 1 skills when we graduated from Puppy K to Level 1 so we only spent 2 weeks in Level 1 before moving to Level 2. We have been in Level 2 for 3 sessions and I expect to be in Level 2 for several more sessions before going on to Level 3. The graduation from Level 3 is the CGC. So, each week there might be a new dog and everyone works at a level for where their dog is that day. So when we do stays, the goal for Level 2 is 2 minutes, Cash and some of the others are working on 2 minutes with distractions, while others are working on 45 seconds with no distractions and others are in between. I like that if we have to miss a class we aren't "behind." All in all, I think it's a good facility and it is the most recommended in my area, but I think it is just the tendency of a lot of trainers to want to put them in a GL to keep the class more controlled.